Inside the Mind of Youth Pastors - Reviewed

A review of my first book.

Join me in a Conference call today!

Join me today in a conference call on youth ministry today.

http://timschmoyer.com/live-youth-ministry-conversations/

or Link

We'll be talking about sustainable youth ministry.

Large Church Youth Ministry Learning Lab

This week I tried something new. A Learning Lab here in Tulsa. I named it "Leadership for the Rest of Us" because I believe in people and how God has gifted them. With so many of the conferences have the same 6 or so presenters and speakers telling the rest of us what leadership is and isn't I felt I'd try a learning lab. Intentionally small, spread by word of mouth, brought together without having to adopt an experts opinion. My hope was to create an alternative experience, something like an un-conference. 12 people converged on Tulsa Monday-Wednesday for a unique experience. Together we wrestled with ways to think of leadership differently. Most were youth pastors and wrestled with ideas related to doing youth ministry differently. What we call, church B. This was also the first module for folks interested in becoming consultants.

It was a beautiful experience.

We will do it again soon. I thinking of doing two different gatherings.

I'm investigating dates right now. But was thinking one of the Learning Labs (module 1) would be for youth pastors in churches larger than 3,000 people.

The second would of course be open just like the others. Then we'd begin to explore Module two together.
If you are interested in either of these? Let me know.
mark@theriddlegroup.com

Learning Lab Video Post #1

for those who are hoping lead in churches moving to Church B.

New Interview with Tim Schmoyer

Blog Tour - Tash McGill (My 1st Kiwi interview!)

Tash McGill from New Zealand interviewed me recently. I love her questions because I was learning from my responses. I felt like there were some really great gems in there. She is super sharp and a great leader for youth ministry in the land of kiwis.

Go here for her interview.

2 Blog Tour Stops today!

Patti Gibbons from the YMX (Youth Ministry Exchange) asks some great questions and has been the first to ask about the age issue in youth ministry.

You touched on the concept of the elongation of adolescence and how that might impact establishing a healthy youth ministry by encouraging hiring “older” (25+) youth pastors. I could hear screams from Bible college and Christian college youth ministry departments from coast to coast as I read that. How do you think that 2-3 years between graduation at age 22-23 could constructively be spent by those who sense a vocational calling to ministry with students and families?

I’m not going to write a prescription for late adolescent involvement, but I’ll say that putting a 20-25 year old person in charge, especially in what I call a Church A model is often destructive for the church they lead in AND maybe more often in the lives of the person in leadership. There are always exceptions. A 20-25 year old person has a lot to offer the church and a lot to learn. Leadership depends often on wisdom and wisdom comes from experience. So late adolescents should be involved in youth ministry, in every way shape and form. They should have incite into the politics of the church and the tough decisions leaders make. But in my opinion they don’t need to be in charge of the spiritual formation of a communities teenagers and their parents. I’ve yet to find anyone over 30 who disagrees with me on this issue.

Here's Patti's entire interview with me.


MarkO - from Youth Specialties interviewed me as well.

marko: and where did you come up with the name for ‘the riddle group’? i don’t understand it. is it, like, “riddle me this?” like, a batman reference?

riddle: (more silence)

marko: (sigh) ok, what does leadership in church b look like?

riddle: Leadership is Church B is very different than in Church A. In Church A command and control is pretty common. The leader (read: modern title for pastor) names the hill the ministry and volunteers will take. This could be a new program, new service, new priority etc. Then the leader spends time getting buy-in, in attempts to align the people of the church with their vision. This is what we call “vision-casting” and is a persuasive technique that focuses on involvement in our ideas. The problem with this kind of leadership is legion. It’s the main way in which we think of leadership in the church these days at big conferences and it’s they way most of the published pastors try to lead their churches. I recently heard a story of one of these published pastors in an interview describe his understanding of leadership. He said something like, “We’re at a banquet and everyone is at the table waiting to eat. The pastor is the dude with the food.” That pretty much sums up Church A mentality. The pastor is God’s chosen vehicle to give the people what they need. While this is the dominant model presented to us at catalytic kinds of conferences, I don’t think it really produces disciples like we’re called to and I think it robs the church of the joy of being the church.

Church B leaders don’t start with their ideas, or the gaps in the ministry they see need improvement. They convene a conversation and see who shows up. Then as a community they look around the room and see who loves youth, what they’re passionate about and finds ways to set them free. Church B leaders refuse to take on responsibility when people try to give it to them when it isn’t theirs. They redirect it. They aren’t the dude (and dudettes) with the food. They are recognize that everyone in the church has wonderful dreams and gifts to give to youth. Which have often been driven from them through our constant drumming or our vision and style of leadership into them. I love this subject and it’s the focus of a Learning Lab I’m leading in Tulsa in late April.

The link for Marko's interview is here.

Visit both sites for some very different kinds of questions!
Other blog tour stops so far have been:
Folks who will be participating in the Blog Tour are:
Adam McLane
Tim Schmoyer
Dan Mayes
more to come.

The Blog Tour

Folks who will be participating in the Blog Tour are:
Adam McLane
Tim Schmoyer
Dan Mayes
Marko
more to come.

Blog Tour Day 2 - Tim Schmoyer

Dan Mayes represents the the Senior Pastors today. Tim Schmoyer is asking questions from the youth pastors perspective.

Here's the Link to the video interview I did with Tim.

Blog Tour Day 2 - Dan Mayes

Dan Mayes, Pastor of First Christian Church Spencer, Iowa interviewed me recently about "Inside the Mind of Youth Pastors" Dan asked some great questions. Yesterday you heard questions from Adam from the youth ministry perspective. Today Dan is coming from a Senior Pastor's perspective. Let me know what you think!

Here's the Link

Blog Tour Begins today

Today I'm on the YS BLOG with Adam McLane

Go here for the video interview.

Patti on Age of youth pastors

Patti of YMX fame is talking about one of the chapters of my books.

I want to get my youth ministry and church leadership audience to chime in on something, if you will. Over the past couple of weeks I’ve been reading Mark Riddle’s new book Inside the Mind of Youth Pastors: A Church Leader’s Guide to Staffing and Leading Youth Pastors. I’m writing a review of the book for YMX, and Mark has graciously agreed to answer a slew of questions I sent him and make this humble blog a stop on his blog book tour.

I’ve been thinking a lot about one of the book’s shortest chapters (12), which addresses the elongation of adolescence and the resulting effect that should have on youth pastor hiring decisions. I asked Mark about it so we will eventually hear his input on this question when the blog tour interview appears.

Let me set the stage a bit. Mark, in Inside the Mind, cites research by Dr. Jeffery Arnett (Emerging Adulthood: The Winding Road from Late Teens through the Twenties) which makes a compelling case that, developmentally, the years from 18 to 25 should be considered late adolescence. The characteristics of this developmental stage, Mark argues, should be carefully considered in choosing to hire someone from this cohort as a spiritual leader for those in earlier stages of adolescence.

From Inside the Mind of Youth Pastors, Ch 12, p 82:

If, however, you choose to hire an emerging adult to lead your youth ministry, you must give significant attention to mentoring that person in leadership and discipleship. Teenagers need their youth pastors to have a strong sense of who they are, based on life experiences. They need youth pastors who have a sense of stability in their identities.

Certainly there are men and women in their early to mid-20s who fit the bill, but they are few and far between. Church leaders need to dispel the myth that younger is better for youth ministry leadership. It’s simply not true. In fact, entrusting spiritual leadership of your teenage children to someone who’s still working through the five characteristics [of late adolescence] listed earlier [in the chapter] is irresponsible.

While there is a lot of that which makes good sense to me - considering that car insurance and rental companies have considered this age group less capable of responsible decision-making and judgment in general, and have run their businesses accordingly for, well, ever. That doesn’t change the fact that the vast majority of youth pastors/minister/directors I have ever had contact with got their start in youth ministry as volunteers or staff as young adults in their early 20s.

So, I’m wondering what you think about this. And, if you agree, what are your constructive ideas for ways to bridge the time from the end of college to age 25 for those who have earned ministry degrees, but are not yet “adults” by this developmental measure?

Go over and see what others are saying in the comment section.
Link

Inside the Mind - Excerpt

Over the next few weeks I'll be throwing out some excerpts from the book for dialogue.

"When a church is in a hurry to hire a youth pastor, it’s a sign that something is wrong. If you learn to read the signs, you can educate yourself on what you’re getting into. A healthy church can wait indefinitely for a new youth pastor. If it takes a year, the church can wait. If it takes three years, the church can wait.

Hurry is a sign that something is wrong, because it suggests pressure from within the organization to take action more quickly than it naturally would. If, for instance, there’s a pressure to hire a youth pastor soon out of fear that students will stop coming, then you can read the sign that says, “The youth pastor is the center for all relationships with kids in our church, and we don’t have enough volunteers.”

If there’s a pressure from parents to find a youth pastor, you can research the origins of it by asking questions about what kind of leader the senior pastor is and what kind of authority parents have in making day-to-day decisions in the church.

Youth pastors and churches who take their time in the hiring process to get to know each other are more likely to be a healthy fit."

taken from Inside the Mind of Youth Pastors, Chapter 10 (Before you say Yes)

Module 1 - Leadership for the Rest of Us

So I'm hosting my first ever leadership learning lab. Read below and see if it's for you!

Leadership for the Rest of Us
Module 1: Leading Church B
April 27 - April 29, 2009

Leading Church B is a combined experiential training, learning lab and retreat for all who want to create and apply practices of working effectively with others to create innovative and comprehensive solutions during times of change. It is a powerful leadership practicum as well as a daily pattern and practice for individuals, communities, families, businesses and organizations who aspire to work in more interactive, engaging and effective ways. This particular Module is advanced training based on the basic foundation found in Mark Riddle’s book Inside the Mind of Youth Pastors.

We welcome fellow leaders – trainers, youth pastors, senior pastors, executive pastors, consultants, youth workers, church plant organizations, leaders of missionary organizations, church board members - pioneers from various roles of church leadership- who want to see and act wisely from a different perspective and practice leadership where our own and other people’s courage, creativity, intelligence and wisdom are set free.

This Training is NOT for Spectators:

Our learning will start with the presenters content, but will grow out of participant contributions and presence – we will support one another as co-learners.

We will learn by observation, experience and practice, using an interactive process to build a safe challenging and inspiring environment.

Develop competence in several interactive processes including unearthing assumptions, advocacy and inquiry and others that produce learning and clarity, creativity and shared commitment to action.


The Hosting Team

Mark Riddle
Mark Riddle is an entrepreneur, speaker, coach, pastor and writer. He serves as the lead pastor of the Eikon, a community committed to living out the dreams of God in Tulsa and the world.

Mark leads the Riddle Group, a coaching and consulting firm committed to collaborating with local church leaders to promote and develop sustainable ministries.
Mark is the author of “Inside the Mind of Youth Pastors: A Church Leaders Guide to Staffing and Leading Youth Pastors” (Zondervan / January 2009).
Mark teaches the 3 course Certificate at Biblical Seminary outside Philly and speaks to coaches church leaders around the country. Mark spends a lot of time with Lead Pastors, Youth Pastors, Church board members and volunteers.

Jonathan Reitz
Founder of the Leader Shed, Jonathan is a gifted speaker, and coach. A natural leader with over 10+ years of ministry experience, Jonathan has worked as a denominational staff member, and as a third party coach. He is a requested speaker, author & coach for ministries of all sizes in the areas of strategic planning, stewardship, & staff development. Jonathan also works in corporate coach development and life coaching.

April 27-29- Conference starts Monday evening and ends Wednesday noon.

Location: Agora is a unique church in mid-town Tulsa - living missionally within the marketplace.

Agora in Tulsa, OK.
4959 South 79th East Ave
Tulsa, Oklahoma 74145

Registration Deadline is April 7, 2009 – Space is limited to 40 participants to maximize this experience. Spaces tend to fill up quickly. Registration is not confirmed until payment is received.

Registration Contact:
Mark Riddle
918.407.1545 (Tulsa, OK. Central Standard Time)
mark@theriddlegroup.com
1807 S. Gardenia Pl.
Broken Arrow, OK. 74012

Cost: $225 (tuition) This does not include meals, lodging or transportation.

We have priced this event to provide modest support for the hosting team and pay for the cost of the facilities, registration and materials. This is seminar is based upon hundreds of similar gathers the hosts have facilitated. However this particular date will be an updated version. For this reason we have significantly lowered the tuition from $1,299 to $225.

Gman Reviews Inside the Mind

Highlights from his review:

1. I wish I had this book when I was in youth minister or better yet my Senior Minister's had it.

2. It helps resonate where I am now. We are currently looking or were looking but am slow in the process - (which is a good thing) and think we need to be more like Church B than Church A and well our values reflect some of both.

3. Chapter Twenty "Unfunny Jokes the Church keeps telling" was so true yet hard to read and Chapter Twenty Three "The Comparison Game" was worth the price of the book itself. This line: "Comparing your youth pastor or youth ministry to those of the church down the street is always destructive." pg. 159 (Whether that be literally or those across the nation)

4. It is a practical book for lay leaders, senior pastors with discussion questions to know what you expect in a Youth pastor, what are you looking for and why?

5. Ever Senior pastor needs to read this. I just wish it want from the mind to the heart and reflected our actions.

6. There is a criticism I would like to make of the book which I think is valid. Despite the 35 pound raccoons we face (Read Chapter 2) the book was too short. I finished it and was like that's it? I wanted more. I even wanted a list of resources and a bibliography and a follow-up. Definitely a book for discussion and getting you started on the right track.

7. I think when we do eventually hire our next staff person - they would benefit that our congregation and the people invested in the youth ministry will have looked at some of the ideas and principles Mark had laid a foundation to here.

Tell all Senior Ministers you know to get their own copy.

Link

Phil Bell reviews "Inside the Mind"

Phil Bell, a pastor in SE Michigan reviews "Inside the Mind of Youth Pastors".

Hers's some of what he said:

A great book that every senior pastor needs to get from their youth pastor! But, also a book that every youth pastor needs to read to better understand the dynamics of their churches and their senior pastors.

I would also say that this book is an essential book for a youth pastor who is looking to get hired at a church anytime soon. It will open your eyes to how a church thinks and acts in the hiring process. You will save yourself time and pain if you read this.

Mark highlights many challenges that youth pastors face, but also allows them to see the big picture of what is going on in their own minds, as well as the mind of the senior pastor and church. It’s a great ‘bridge builder’ of a book and is very practical and relevant.

Link

Thanks Phil! I'm glad you see this as a helpful tool for those leading the church.

Inside the Mind of Youth Pastors - NOW AVAILABLE!

Hey friends,
I just wanted you to know that my first book, "Inside the Mind of Youth Pastors" is now available online at Amazon.com!

My hope is that this will be a book that helps church leaders develop healthy, sustainable youth ministries within their communities.

If you want, join the facebook discussion group, or find out more into at MarkRiddle.net.

I look forward to hearing what you think of it!
My prayer is that it will make a difference for the kingdom of God.
We'll see.

Look what came in the mail today

How cool is that?

Inside the Mind on Ecampus

I'll be using "Inside the Mind of Youth Pastors" next semester for the seminary class I'm teaching on Leadership. I'm excited that it's on ecampus. If you're a youth ministry prof for a seminary or college, hit up YS for a free copy once they are available so you can see if you want to use it for youth ministry curriculum too. My apologies for the blatant self promotion. :-)

Inside the Mind at Barnes and Noble

I'm excited because Barnes and Noble will be carrying the new book. When a book is written, folks from your publisher, in this case Zondervan /Youth Specialties tell book stores about your book. At that point the stores decide if they want to buy your book and then make an order. The publisher has a secret formula for how many books to print based on how many orders they get from various stores. Today my google news feed sent me this Link . Barnes and Noble. At least in the only store. It's a bit of an odd experience. I'm learning a lot.

Thanks to the good people at Zondervan and Youth Specialies for all their hard work to get B&N interested in my book.

I continue to get positive feedback on Inside the Mind of Youth Pastors and I hope it will be helpful for the church.

A program-less youth ministry

Adam over at Pomomusings has invited dialogue on program-less youth ministry.

here's my response to his question.
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lots of thoughts on this man.

1. I love the heart of this.
2. I'm guessing you know more about this than I do.
3. I might ask the question a bit differently. The way the question is inherently retributive in nature, it's the like the kid who is growing up asking who will I become, as long as it's not like dad. The question contains barriers the possibilities are you hoping for. The goal isn't program-less ym so much as it is, what are the possiblities for great ministry to/with/for/from youth and their families. Or perhaps better than that is a series of questions for each community to answer like:

What might community look like in our context?
What is the role of a pastor in a community?
What is the role of a community member, and how well am I (as a member) contributing to youth and children?
How important are youth to me as a community member and what kind of commitment am I willing to make to kids here?
What rhythms and activities in my life (as a community member) encourage and interfere with our hopes for community and spiritual formation for youth?
Are youth important to us as a community, and in what way have we lived this out?

It seems to me that how a church answers these questions will lead them to answer yours. To declare youth ministry be program-less is actually another subtly colonial leadership style to impose on people in a church. The vision of program-less youth ministry then becomes one more way in which a leader declares what they think is best and attempts to align people with their program. buy in or ownership in this circumstance will likely not happen on a meaningful scale, because it is essential the same thing as program driven youth ministry, just a different means. A leader trying to leverage influence to minister to youth.

the question then is, instead of how do I as a leader, or resident expert try to create a program-less youth ministry that I believe in, it becomes, what environment do I need to create to enable the congregation to care for youth in a way that is meaningful, healthy, and faithful to them.

Just a thought or two.

-----------------------
I think this is true for any area of ministry actually.

What do you think?

Inside the Mind: Blog Review

Dan Mayes reviews Inside the Mind of Youth Pastors.

He likes it and thinks it will be helpful for the church. Go to Dan's site and read what he says. The book comes out in January.

Here's the link.